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[杂谈] No zuo no die 贪婪政客为选票动摇国本—从苏格兰独立公投说起

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  • TA的每日心情
    慵懒
    2020-7-26 05:11
  • 签到天数: 1017 天

    [LV.10]大乘

    楼主
    发表于 2014-9-17 22:38:51 | 显示全部楼层
    看这篇文章,给我的感觉有点象看一些西方媒体对中国政治的评论一样,表面上好像是义正言辞,但其实缺少最基本的常识。

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  • TA的每日心情
    慵懒
    2020-7-26 05:11
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    [LV.10]大乘

    沙发
    发表于 2014-9-17 23:33:07 | 显示全部楼层
    凡卡 发表于 2014-9-17 22:47
    愿闻其详,可以展开来说一下吗? 谢谢

    我现在没有时间对这个问题写太多,简单说两点。

    比如这句

    这个时候,如果英国的头头脑脑够聪明的话,就应该立刻退回当年的方案,解散苏格兰议会。这事在当年还是很轻松的,虽然苏格兰民族党最大,但未过半数,工党和保守党完全可以联手倒掉这个支持独立的苏格兰地方政府。


    和这句

    按照保守党前辈,撒切尔夫人的搞法——去nmb的,快给老娘把这群混球抓起来,统统塞进牢房里饿死


    如果英国政府这么做的话,是可以保证苏格兰会独立的。而且独立后的苏格兰会成为英国的敌人。而目前的形势再不利,仍然是反对方稍稍占上风。比如赌博公司的赔率是3比1,反对独立方占有不小的优势。

    还有文中提到的1905年挪威从瑞典独立。现在挪威是世界上生活水平最高的国家,瑞典也基本上总能排在前5名。就是英国和苏格兰分开过的话,英国在国际社会上的影响会有所降低。但对普通老百姓来说,也不是什么灭顶之灾。

    文章后面对联邦制的那一段话,我只能评论说是无知。要展开说的话就要写成长篇大论,今天没有这个时间,对不起了。



    点评

    你没仔细看。“退回当年的方案”说的是2007年的事情,并不是现在。不存在退回方案就肯定独立的问题。  发表于 2014-9-18 11:14
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  • TA的每日心情
    慵懒
    2020-7-26 05:11
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    [LV.10]大乘

    板凳
    发表于 2014-9-18 01:06:36 | 显示全部楼层
    natasa 发表于 2014-9-18 00:43
    你忽略了英国和瑞典的区别。 北欧国家是富国,不是政治大国。 英国是五常,英格兰是五常吗? 你的判断是 ...

    1905年挪威从瑞典独立的时候,挪威和瑞典都是欧洲的穷国。分开过以后是越过越好。我觉得这篇文章拿这个做例子,好像英国恶有恶报,有点可笑。

    政治大国,在国际政治上的影响,对国家领导人来说是很重要,特别可以满足虚荣心。对普通老百姓来说,这又不能当饭吃,我觉得没什么大用。

    我也不是认为分裂总比统一好。在苏格兰独立的问题上,我觉得苏格兰留下来对英国对苏格兰都是更好。我只是觉得这篇文章好像分开过就是灭顶之灾一样的态度,有点无知。

  • TA的每日心情
    慵懒
    2020-7-26 05:11
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    [LV.10]大乘

    地板
    发表于 2014-9-18 01:30:22 | 显示全部楼层
    natasa 发表于 2014-9-18 01:17
    我说的和你说的真的不一样啊,不过北欧国家历史我知道的真不多,要去看看了。

    我强调的不是英国的政治地 ...

    700年以前今天的丹麦,瑞典,挪威,芬兰,冰岛都是一个国家,后来一个个逐渐分裂出去。未来如果全球气候继续变暖的话,格陵兰岛也很有可能会独立。但是现在这些国家是世界上最富裕,生活水平最高,国民幸福程度最高的。因此就是分裂为这么多国家又如何呢?

    你怎么知道英国没了苏格兰后就会沉沦呢?还有经济上被边缘化这个词是什么意思我不太懂。另外我读到的,好多英国人是欢迎苏格兰独立的,因为苏格兰每年从中央政府得到的拨款大于上缴的税收。

  • TA的每日心情
    慵懒
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    [LV.10]大乘

    5#
    发表于 2014-9-18 02:10:55 | 显示全部楼层
    natasa 发表于 2014-9-18 01:50
    你的判断依据是现在好,将来一定会好,我觉得这个依据比较成问题。 北欧国家虽然我了解的不多,我看到的情 ...

    北欧国家就是挪威有石油,其余没有什么特别丰富的资源。我不是说分裂让他们变得富裕,而是说分开过没有这篇文章里暗示得那么可怕。

    你下面关于苏格兰独立后会和人口是它10倍的英国开战抢资源的预测,我只能说象是在写幻想小说。苏格兰如果独立的话,北海石油会按地理划线分割,苏格兰会拿到90%。但是石油公司的预测,不久的未来北海石油的产量就会不断降低,这以及其它一些原因,我认为苏格兰独立不符合他们自己的利益。但这也不是说独立以后,就腥风血雨,天下大乱了。

  • TA的每日心情
    慵懒
    2020-7-26 05:11
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    [LV.10]大乘

    6#
    发表于 2014-9-18 05:30:34 | 显示全部楼层
    natasa 发表于 2014-9-18 05:18
    资源问题不是你说打或者不打就能解决的,当初苏格兰之所以接受合并就是因为全民狂热的投资开发加勒比海地 ...

    矿产占瑞典GDP产值的0.9%,这要叫依靠丰富矿产来推动经济发展的话,你这定义也太宽泛了。

    你前一段引得苏格兰历史错误很多,用它来立论不太成立。

  • TA的每日心情
    慵懒
    2020-7-26 05:11
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    [LV.10]大乘

    7#
    发表于 2014-9-18 13:26:41 | 显示全部楼层
    肥狐 发表于 2014-9-18 13:02
    苏格兰福利确实比英格兰好。

    英国可以从容公投搞独立,一个原因是国家没有外敌威胁,岛国的地缘优势。

    你说的有道理。我今天读到的一篇文章的观点也是苏格兰今天会要求独立,也是因为现在几乎没有任何安全威胁。这篇文章的作者Clive Crook是英格兰人,现在住在美国。他支持苏格兰独立。

    Scotland, Be Brave and Go It Alone

    SEPT 17, 2014 9:29 AM EDT
    By Clive Crook

    http://www.bloombergview.com/art ... ave-and-go-it-alone

    The elite consensus -- outside Scotland, I mean -- is impressively solid. It says that the Scots will be making a big mistake if, in tomorrow's referendum, they vote to leave the U.K. I beg to differ. It's a close call, but my advice to Scots is to vote for independence.

    This isn't because I'm convinced by the independence campaign. Actually, as I've previously explained, I'm disgusted by it. Alex Salmond, Scotland's first minister, and others in the Yes campaign have made their case dishonestly. Far from giving Scotland a fiscal windfall, independence is likely to impose an additional fiscal burden. The transitional costs of separating from the U.K. could be large. The promise to keep sterling is insane. And aside from all that, independence is a risk for a small country that's heavily dependent on a single resource: oil.

    So if voters choose divorce because they believe what Salmond has told them, a lot of them will be in for a shock. For a while, they might well regret what they've done. The safe choice is to vote no. Nonetheless, I recommend divorce. Scotland will get over the shock and be glad, in the end, to be unhitched.

    It comes down to this: Scots are bound more tightly to each other -- by history, culture and ethnicity -- than they are to the rest of the U.K. In this sense, Scotland is, and for centuries has been, another country. Its desire for full nationhood has waxed and waned, but it certainly isn't new. The union is hundreds of years old, but the things that make Scotland different haven't been smoothed away, which tells you something.

    What has changed in recent decades is that the U.K. has become both less hospitable to the Scots and less necessary.

    The U.K. is centralized to an unusual degree, and ever more so. London and its surroundings continue to increase their cultural and economic dominance, and the Scots are right to feel marginalized. Seeming to push against this was the devolution of government, notably through the Scotland Act of 1998, which set up a Scottish parliament with limited powers. This was a mostly sincere effort to meet the Scottish demand for self-rule, but in a subtle way, it served to underline the disparity in status.

    Devolution grafted special arrangements for Scotland onto an essentially unchanged settlement in England -- even at the cost of glaring constitutional anomalies (Scottish members of the Westminster parliament continued to vote on English matters; English members of Parliament don't vote in Scotland). You might think this was a nice deal for Scotland -- and it was generous enough, at any rate, to cause resentment in England. But there's another way of reading it (you have to imagine it in an English accent): "You can have more self-rule, but only if it has no implications for us. That's how little you matter."

    More devolution of this kind is again on offer if Scotland votes against independence. Depending on the details, it would go some way toward meeting the Scottish desire for self-government, but it won't meet the Scottish demand to be respected as a nation. Moreover, to the extent that Scotland makes a success of its devolved political powers, it would demonstrate that it can, in fact, rule itself. Devolution was supposed to satisfy the appetite for self-determination; in fact, it made Scotland hungry for more.

    The world has changed, too. Scots made a conspicuously disproportionate contribution to the running of the British empire. In the wars of the 20th century, they were full partners with the rest of the U.K. in fighting for Britain and celebrated as such. That unifying sense of grand British purpose, defined by colonial prerogatives and obligations, as well as by existential threats (first Germany, then Germany again, then the Soviet Union), has gone.

    The world is by no means a safe place, but -- Russian President Vladimir Putin and Islamic State notwithstanding -- it's safer than before. Today the European Union offers small nations equal standing in a peaceful new regional order, with guaranteed access to each other's markets and a promise of mutual support. Small EU countries, even those on Russia's borders, feel no need to be absorbed by a condescending protector. If Ireland can succeed as a modern European nation and never regret its independence, why not Scotland?

    There are short-term risks and costs, to be sure. And for the rest of the U.K., the divorce would be a lasting injury -- to its prestige, above all. U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron and his ministers would look ridiculous and might never be forgiven, going down in history not as the government that freed Scotland but as one that lost it through sheer indolence. This sudden prospect of humiliation, which animates much of the pro-union commentary, is an important factor: It adds to the danger of a divorce that's bitter and needlessly painful for both parties.

    A friendly separation is possible, though -- and in the longer term, for the best. My guess is that Scotland will, after all, vote against independence tomorrow, cowed by the risks and uncertainties and by the sudden force of international opinion telling them to think again. If so, it will be a shame. A Scotland that stays in the union reluctantly will be of little use to itself or anybody else. Alongside childish simplicity on fiscal and monetary policy, peevish resentment of the English has been a persistent aspect of the independence campaign. The cure for both is to grow up and move on.

  • TA的每日心情
    慵懒
    2020-7-26 05:11
  • 签到天数: 1017 天

    [LV.10]大乘

    8#
    发表于 2014-9-20 01:56:58 | 显示全部楼层
    tanis 发表于 2014-9-19 21:52
    这个税的问题看到了不同说法啊~ 是不是由于北海油田不归苏格兰,所以英国收钱上去再把一部分返还给苏格兰 ...

    What is the Barnett formula and how does it work?

    http://www.theguardian.com/polit ... es-northern-ireland

    The system that sets public spending in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is known as the Barnett funding formula, named after its inventor, the former Labour Treasury secretary Joel Barnett, who devised it in the late 1970s.

    One of the reasons it is so controversial is that it has led to public spending per head being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England. Last year under the formula, Scotland got £10,152 per head, Wales, despite being much poorer, got £9,709, and England got £8,529.

    The formula is calculated partly by the population of each nation and partly on which powers each nation has devolved to them. Some departments are almost fully devolved, such as education and health, while others are partly so.

    In 2010 the Conservatives said the Barnett formula was reaching the end of its useful life, but David Cameron and the two other main party leaders, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg, have vowed that it will continue.

    In a paper in 2011 (pdf), the Welsh assembly gave the following example of how the Barnett formula worked. If the UK government increased its spending on transport by £100m, then the calculation would be £100m x 0.731 x 0.0579 = £4.23m.



    The formula assigns transport a comparability percentage – relating to the extent to which services delivered by UK government departments correspond to services for which, say, the Welsh government has responsibility – of 73.1% for Wales, and Wales's population is 5.79% the size of England's. Therefore, the Welsh Barnett consequential would be an additional £4.23m.

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